Why can't I win?

[PB_Zephyr]

Title is pretty much self explanitory. Everyone here knows how I play so just gimme the straight. Why can I never seem to put together a 500 pt army the wins? I know about the whole "I'm too nice" stuff when I'm playing inexperienced or challenged people, but I'm talking about the real games. Just gimme some help because everytime I start thinking about army lists I get depressed (even though I have like 30 army lists on my comp heh.)

thanks in advance,

warmaster genepfffffffff hahahahaha yeah ok

P.S. this post isn't supposed to sound bithy or whiny so sorry if you got that impression

[Zexsudel]

I think the biggest thing is you gotta except your opponent to hit as hard as they can as soon as they can. You tend to wait back a little too long waiting for the right moment, but those moments never arise.
I like to just get dirty where the mud is flung. Once the action hits, get in there and fight. Dont hold back. This is why I would have a hard time playing cygnar. Some many troops seems to be support. I think your melee themed list wasnt bad. Maybe you just need to play more. I am always up for a game if you are up for the drive to greenfield (omg 25 whole minutes)

[Orthosofthecold]

I think your biggest problem is that even in tournament games you always try to do crazy bizarre things that while looking really cool, are completely unneccesary. While this is fun in friendly games in tournaments you really cant do that and get away with it. case in point, your idea about the mule and the devildogs, while it is a really cool idea and it would be quite amusing to see it just isnt practical for the amount of points it would cost. I myself came up with a long combo of events that could get one of my jacks to the other side of the table 1st turn. But it requires building my entire army around doing that one thing. So all you really need to learn to do is balance how cool something is with how practical something is and i think you'll start winning more tournament games.

[PG_Hevy Phyzx]

First...Get rid of those ATGMs. Take some LGs or Trenchers instead. I know, I know "EVERYONE else does that." Yeah, and that's why they win more often than not. I hate ATGMs. They are next to useless for me. I have never gotten them to work right. Their RAT is too low for what they are supposed to be able to do.

Second...Why the heck did you attack the INN in your last game at the tournament. If you had gone throught the inn and attacked the wall, you would have created a bigger hole in the wall and gotten to Magnus more quickly!

Why did you want to bring down that building to get to Magnus? I thought you wasted a lot of good effort in bringing the building down.

Against Ranz...(and any Denny and Bile Thrall army, or heck, for that matter Cleansers and Feora) Don't line up your forces! I saw his Venom attack coming as soon as I saw your SBs along that wall.

When you face a spray attack army (Feora/Cleansers and Denny/Biles) you cannot leave your forces in one line. Limit the number of models the Spray (or AOE) can hit. I have kept this in mind, and the most models I have ever had hit in any one attack is three from a spray, and four from an AOE (4" at that).

Since you are playing Cygnar (an I play them too) start looking at how your WC compliments the troops.

Haley Lists...look for things that have potent attacks so that they can get multiple of them when she blitzes. Haley also has Arc.Shield, but she is more an attacking WC than a support WC (unlike Stryker with his feat and AS.) Haley also can tackle those "Stealthed" units with her Chain Lightning spell. I have rarely been using her TB, and that mainly for the -3 DEF to opponents. When LGs fire in pairs for a CRA they get a +5 to hit essentially (Same for Trenchers, and SBs when they shoot).

Stryker lists...He is a "DROP and POP" with his earthquake. Use units that can take advantage of the KD'd units. EQ the screening models and fire your LGs into the units behind (usually the WC.)

Caine Lists...I am not as familiar with Caine as I am with Haley. I like his SNIPE and Thunder Strike though. And always save 2 FOC to "FLASH" him out if things have gotten desparate.

Nemo...is not the best "solo" WC. He would be great against 'Jack heavy lists, but few folks run those. AND...he is awful squishy for a WC (as you can recall from my one shot kill from the Charger.)

My Current Favorite List:
Haley
Lancer
JWC
Defender (run by JWC)
GMCA
SwordKnights (full Troop. When Haley Blitzes, they get three attacks!)
LGs (9 troopers)

I am working on a Haley/Trencher army list currently and will play it later this month to tell you about it.

[PB_Zephyr]

Thanks for the input so far everyone .

@ Kako: I do think that I need to play more friendly games. I think I've only played 2 this whole summer next to the 20ish tourney matches.

@ Schwencke: Balance IS the key but I still want to have some cool tricks up my sleve. Maybe I just need to think harder (and cheaper [point-wise {lol}]).

@ Andy: Hey my ATGMs are one of my most successful units, maybe I just have some quirky knack for them. I don't think RAT 6 is low at all and the arcane effect options give them versatility. I especially like thunder bolting my own jack to give it some extra distance before it activates. Arcane inferno is also handy for swarms (AOE is hard to come by in Cygnar.) I don't know if I'll be throwing them out of my lists quite yet.
But aside from my Gun mage buddies your input was very helpful. I do always seem to line up my units >.> so I gotta quit that. I think I'll start playing more with different casters because I've been running Stryker almost exclusively and he doesn't seem to be winning me many tournies. I guess I'm just a fan of his noble characteristics (well pre-apotheosis anyway.) I'm thinking about Haley because she has a bunch of fun spells. AS is nice to have and Deadeye will help those gunmages actually detonate ( 10+2D6 AND 10+3D6 spells bad news for solos, lights and MOWs.)

All in all I have some thinking to do. If anyone has anymore suggestions to give feel free. It helps me not suck

[Zexsudel]

yeah his ATGM really annoy the hell out of me. They can waste my cortex is nothing flat making the 300 points i spent on jacks uselss...

[PG_FavoriteChoirBoy]

Im going to have to agree with the common theme that, even in friendly games, you aren't nearly as agressive as you should be. That being said, your lists generally have a cool theme; its just that they're sometimes too complicated or revolve around a very specific circumstance. While its a blast to see these get pulled off from time to time, its also kinda funny to watch you flounder and your army just kinda go " " as they get stomped unmercifly into goo. Surely there are more agressive lists on your hard drive there, loaded with the really scary stuff Cygnar has to throw out there, like Stormblades, Sword Knights, the Gunmages, Leeland, and ALL those crazy heavy Jacks.

Also, I dont think you need to alter your caster choice to win. Haley and Caine are both good, but they're in trouble if they get pinned down, and Stryker is well rounded enough that he can adapt to nearly any situation. I feel that he may actually be one of the most well rounded casters in the game, along with Kreoss and Irusk.

[PB_Zephyr]

Oooo look, my disreguard for logic in action!

Today while I was working I was thinking about these ideas. I remembered Andy having a less than stunning endorsement of Nemo. Therefore I feel the need to prove his worth for some reason. He's 14/14 which means he can only get hit hard like once (Skarre bomb pretty much kills him outright only having to roll an 8 on 3D6 damage to kill.) But then I think, "Hey, I got those devildogs that can use merc 'jacks"..."Hey, the Vanguard is cool"..."Yeah, then Nemo would be 18/14 when screened"..."COOL!! MUSt TRY."

My ideas are more screwed up than the dialogue from Duel Masters lol.


Anyway.. Thanks for the continuing posts. Every one helps. @ Fox: I think I'll need some help coming up with more aggressive lists because I really DO enjoy having some theme. Maybe we could sit down and think of one sometime.

[PG_FavoriteChoirBoy]

One thing I've noticed playing against you is that you don't adapt to change well in-game. You have a long chain of combos, and units that build off of each other, but if the lynchpin of your army (which isnt always your warcaster) gets knocked out, you seem to lose focus and get all "oh crap!" ish.

One thing that I do, is at the top of my turn, re-evaluate the situation, and decide what needs to be done to eliminate immediate threats first, then consider which targets you want to go after. Running on a set course will get you wiped out easily. Learn to adapt to a changing situation.

[PG_Hevy Phyzx]

Connor, don't get me wrong...Stryker is one of the WC's a whole heck of a lot of us "Swan-boyz" swear by. Between his Earthquake and his Disruption (Pistol and Sword) those are pretty potent weapons. He also has Snipe! and all the ARCANE...spells (Blast, Bolt and Shield), so he has an AOE of his own too. Stryker is really powerful when used in compliment with other units.

Me, I am a Haley-man. I have loved how she worked from the beginning. I have had great success with her in "Box Set" duels, in tourneys, and in "friendly games". I think I have become so familiar with her capabilities that I see a lot of things with her that I don't with the other WC's. Now, she is nearly as squishy as Nemo is. That, and her melee attack isn't the greatest. But then again, if she's in melee, I'm losing ;D

Still don't like the ATGM's. I guess you just have better success with them. I never have.

AS you can see...I think that playing Cygnar is one of the hardest Factions to play. You have to get a mix of units that works well together, and not a unit for this and a unit for that. When you play Crygnar, you have to play the faction in such a way that all the units can work in combination. Think about the whole Trencher Tactic. Yet, trenchers in and of themselves are not the end all and be all of the force. They make a great screen and have a good punch, but you have to support them, or they are worthless.

As others have said...agression is the other key. This game does not reward the meek. It both rewards and punishes the bold, but it ALWAYS punishes the meek.

[grotesquefreak9]

whenever i've played against you it seems that you send one unit in and have everyone else hang back. Then when that unit dies the next wave comes in. That can work, but you need to use terrain to hide your backup close enough to the battle to help out the front lines, without risking injury.

[PB_Zephyr]

Thanks once again to everyone posting. Between this thread and some searching around the PP forums I think I have a better idea on how to win games and think up successful army lists. Now I just gotta play some more games!

[PG_Hevy Phyzx]

See the events thread...tourney at Zombie Planet if anyone is interested. I know they are a rival store, but hey...its our favorite game!

[Zexsudel]

you know where to find me. I have tuesday night free (meaning the boss is gone and no work)